The Heart of Innovation

Intuition or Bias? How to make decisions with confidence with Cheryl Strauss Einhorn

March 28, 2023 Bill Duane
The Heart of Innovation
Intuition or Bias? How to make decisions with confidence with Cheryl Strauss Einhorn
Show Notes Transcript

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn is an award-winning  investigative reporter at New York Times and Foreign Policy Magazine, Barron’s who wanted to be sure she could navigate complexity and ambiguity in the high stakes world of finance with confidence and good conscience. To solve for this she innovated an evidence-based decision-making system that uniquely controls for and counters cognitive bias to expand knowledge while improving judgment called the Area method In todays chat, well be talking about specific tools we can use to better trust our intuition - and address our biases and new book Problem Solver.
You can learn more by watching her
Ted talk and visiting areamethod.com.

Intro and Outro music kind courtesy of Taraval.

Bill Duane:

Hi, welcome to the heart of innovation Podcast. I'm Bill Duane former civil engineering executive and Superintendent of wellbeing and courage consultant and speaker on innovation strategy. We're going to be diving deep into the internal innovation that unlocked external innovation and the surprisingly practical ways we can become better innovators. We'll be in conversation with innovators from many different backgrounds and contexts including business, science, social change and technology and not only benefit from their expertise, but also their personal stories of their innovation journey. Today, we'll be talking about Cheryl Strauss Einhorn, an award winning investigative reporter at The New York Times Foreign Policy magazine in Barron's wanted to make sure she could navigate complexity and ambiguity in the high stakes world of finance, with both confidence and good conscience. To solve for this, she innovated an evidence based decision making system that uniquely controls for encounters cognitive bias, to expand knowledge while improving judgment called the area method. In today's chat, we're gonna be talking about specific tools we can use to better trust our intuition, and address our biases, all of which is contained in her new book problem solvers. So Cheryl, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to talk about this method of decision making. And happy to have you, Bill, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. So we'll start off with the usual conversation starter. What does the word innovation mean to you? And how has it been showing up in your life recently.

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

So to me, innovation is an update, or something that is new or novel. Traditionally, when we think of innovation, we tend to think of it as something like the ladder, an iPad, or a Tesla, or some kind of product, but ideas and thinking systems. They can be innovations, too. So if you take something like my area method, decision making system, it's an example of an update for how we collect how we engage and how we analyze information, to check and challenge our cognitive biases.

Bill Duane:

Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that's so important to bring out because when we think about innovation, it seems like a lot of times, and this is something you mentioned in your book, also, that we are archaeologists looking for the truth with a capital T. And if we're clever about where we dig, we will find our way towards where the treasure is hidden. But something you talk about is that it's much more of a process of exploration. And it's not, it's not sort of goal oriented in that way. But the way that you do the exploring is actually you know, where the innovation comes from, rather than this image of like being in the dark with your, with your hands out sort of searching for the searching for the treasure. And, you know, the one thing that really jumped out at me, is when you say, we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are. And to me, that's a really profound way of articulating that it's not, it's not the thing that's out there that we're looking for, but rather, it's our it's our process of of looking for it. And that idea of knowing your own frame, your own lens with which you look at the world. And one of the things I really and so if you if you say that that sounds like a pretty nebulous thing about to become aware of your own lens, but your your work is quite specific that with a little bit of effort and framework that you can actually begin to understand your own lens and God help us the lenses of the people around you who have shockingly different, seemingly crazy as lenses. So

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

what got you started on this on this journey of it? Because it's so important, and I think it's so overlooked. What made you go, Hey, this is so this is really important. Well, first, I love that phrase that we don't see the world as it is. But as we are and I have to give credit where credit is due that is from the Talmud. And what got me started on thinking about decision making is that my background is in investigative journalism. And for over a decade, I wrote for the business magazine as an editor and columnist in Barron's, and Barron's is a publication that takes a viewpoint on something related to the markets. And so I would write stories about companies and about management teams that were often considered bearish companies stories, stories that take a skeptical look at what a company was doing. And when these stories were published, that often be a Very large share price reaction. Sometimes the stock exchange would hold the shares, sometimes regulators would get involved. For one company in a series of expos A's that I wrote, the CEO actually ended up being sentenced to 10 years in jail, and companies went out of business. And what I realized is that these stories don't just have an impact on somebody's investment portfolio, these stories also had an impact on somebody's ability to safeguard their retirement money. Or if they weren't these companies, their ability to show up for their job, or if you happen to buy a product or service that one of these companies made your ability to feel like you could trust the product. And for one of the companies that were the largest maker of diabetic test kits in the United States, that's a product that people use multiple times a day that help them to better define their health. And so I just started to think about who am I as a decision maker? How do I know that when I'm writing these stories that are causing these outsized outcomes, then I'm actually telling stories that should be told that I am listening to information with an open mind. And then I am able to think about the incentives and motives of the people who share their thoughts and their experiences about these companies, with me. And so that was really how I started to think about what kind of mental mistakes and flaws could I be bringing to the table? And could I set up a way with my background and research to better check and challenge the way that I collect, engage and analyze information?

Bill Duane:

Yeah, yeah. So underneath that, it sounds like and let me know if I have this, right, is that the the key values are? Accuracy, and I'm not sure if accuracy is the right word, given that it's a it's a subjective world. But as I want to use words like accuracy, truth, fairness, they're sort of one grouping of words. And then the other is to see that which is not obvious, or in the cases of this, which is actively obfuscated, so So it seems like there's these values of truth and accuracy and also digging to find out what's there that may be hidden, or that one, is that correct, and two, are there any other values that underlie this, this drive, and maybe the third one is to make sure that you're not doing harm. At the end, you mentioned to make sure that your own biases are not are not or are accounted

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

for, here's how I would define the goals. One is to have an opportunity to hear the different stakeholders involved in the decision to get up close on their perspectives to understand how they see and understand the issue that we're talking about. And then to have an opportunity to check and challenge my own cognitive biases, so that I have a better opportunity for a fulsome understanding of the problem. I'm not sure at all that I would say that there is an objective truth. I'm saying that what we're trying to do is to have an inclusive opportunity to understand the situation before us. And that way we can evaluate the facts and the diagnostic capacity of those facts, to arrive at a decision that we have confidence in.

Bill Duane:

Hmm, and I love that word in confidence. So it's, it's it's a way of creating confidence, confidence in a field of ambiguity and complexity, right. One of the things I love about your model is, from first principles, it assumes complexity and ambiguity, and how can we then trust our intuition, as well as our fact based finding abilities knowing that there is no, you know, maybe truth with a capital T, but how can we narrow down as much such that we have confidence about describing something that is complex? And maybe

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

actually what my area method decision making system does is it differentiates between what is uncertain and what is ambiguous. Those things that are ambiguous, are inherently subjective and they're a matter of your values. Those things that are uncertain you're never going In a truly software, you can triangulate to mitigate uncertainty, but you can actually solve for ambiguity. Hmm.

Bill Duane:

So for those that haven't had the good fortune to read your books yet, can you talk a little bit about the area method?

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Absolutely. So area is an acronym for the steps of my decision making process that really works to help you expand your knowledge while improving your judgment. So the first day is absolute information from up close on the target of your decision. The next concentric circle is relative information. That's the are those are sources related to the target of your decision. From there, you move into area II, which are exploration and exploitation, the twin engines of creativity, exploitation is expanding your research breadth beyond documents, to identify good sources, and ask them great questions. So it's interviewing, then exploitation asks you to confront your own cognitive biases through a series of creative exercises that I've learned from experts in other fields, such as the intelligence gathering community, or medicine. And then the final a of area is analysis, where you think about failure and how the decision could go awry. So you can strength test your decision. And it helps you put all of your information together so that you can come to conviction about your decision.

Bill Duane:

I, I love and I see the way the reason why you use the word inclusive decision making, because each one of those, not each one of them. But some of those categories are very unpleasant to think about. And as a result, it's normal and natural to not do that. Oh, so when you say inclusive decision making, like when I'm listening to you, I'm like, that's all. I mean, not only is it allowed, but it's welcome and sought after me put it

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

for a minute in a way that I think you and your listeners might appreciate, given your background, think of the area method as the opposite of Google. Normally, when we have a decision to make, we type an answer into Google, we type our question rather into Google. And immediately, we come up with all these answers instantaneously, with no idea about the validity, or the value of the various stakeholders who are providing information. And therefore no idea if they're solving the problem for the same reason that we are. So we're in all perspectives at once, without any idea of the quality. What area basically says is that we want to think about carefully the information that we're gathering, and we want to separate out the sources of our information. So that we can get up close to each one to understand their incentives and motives, and have a way to think about whether or not that aligns with why we're solving the decision, and be able to piece the information together in a way that helps us to hear these different voices, and to also hear our own voice.

Bill Duane:

And then, one of the things that jumped out at me in your in your new book that just came out this week called problem solvers is this idea of the cheetah pause. So when you when you describe this, a lot of times when we take shortcuts, we do so either because it's like I mentioned, it's unpleasant, or it takes more time. And one of the things that I think that's really interesting about your background is that the stakes were so high when you were reading these articles that you had to but if it's important then that it's important and you mentioned again in the book is like our whole day to day life is made of these smaller decisions. But time a lot of times one of the key factors where we make shortcuts is this idea of of time and you have this idea of a cheetah pause that will let you unpack and you know your your hypothesis is that this method, the area type method is actually more efficient in the medium and long term.

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Right, the idea of the area method is to make your work work for you. And so the cheetah paws is integral and I coined this term because the cheetah while it's the fastest land animal accelerating up to 60 miles an hour in a single stride. That's not where the hunting prowess comes from. It comes from the fact that in a single stride, the cheetah can decelerate up to nine miles an hour. And now you're talking about agility, flexibility, maneuverability. That's what We need inequality decision making system. And what's really been missing one of the many things that's been missing in our thought process about decision making is this issue of timing and strategic stops. So everywhere along the area method where I think you want to chunk your learning, I insert a cheetah paws. And everywhere that I have a cheetah pause, I have a cheetah sheet. And these sheets are meant to be the graphic organizers of the area method. So that when you take these pauses, I'm giving you guidance on what to do on providing you with a set of questions for reflection, or suggestions about quality type of places to look for information. And so these citta pauses become an easy terminology and way to remind ourselves of the true importance of strategic stops, and what to do when we're in those moments. Huh,

Bill Duane:

yeah, that idea of the of the pause so hard again, one of the things well, one of the things when I first met you, that really drew me to you is how good you are at articulating things that can be pretty nebulous. So one of the things I'm excited about, and is, you know, your work really gives people very practical ways to actually action this because it is, you know, I think, you know, to deal with complexity and ambiguity with overly simplistic methods. Well, we see the downsides of that all around us. So one is I'm really in awe of your ability to articulate these things quite clearly. And then the idea that there's these actual, you know, there, have you ever read The Checklist Manifesto?

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Wonderful. I love all of his books.

Bill Duane:

Yeah. And so the checklist for anyone that hasn't read it, it's the idea that even super bright, super smart people, like surgeons, and an airline pilots need to have these reminders of the right steps to go through. And the one hand, you think about using a checklist is slow. But on the other hand, the cost of missing a step is really high. So, you know, we talked, we talked that this method was really born of this very high stakes invest in financial investigative journalism, you know, arena, but you and I met actually, at a meditation retreat, we both share a deep interest in being good at becoming a human and kind and all of that. How can these methods be brought into our not just our professional lives when we're sort of doing where we have like a grownup outfit on? And we're, we're doing things on a project plan, but how, how does this method shape to making decisions in your personal life where they might be a different kind of high stakes, and with the time and maybe with less of a less formal context?

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

So first, I Atul Gawande is I think, a wonderful example of somebody who takes very complex ideas and is able to write so clearly. And I also want to say he, he wrote me an endorsement for my first book for problem solved. Which just meant so so much to me, I think your point about often making decisions differently between personal life and professional life is something that I find all the time when I work with individuals and companies and nonprofits, that people see themselves and give different quality to decisions in different spheres of their life. And I find that the investment that they put in themselves professionally, is often not given in their personal life. And I think it would benefit people to realize that they deserve they deserve that same time personally, that they spend in their life, professionally on their decisions, because it's the only thing we ever have control over in our entire life is how we decide whether we're going to decide when we decide for the most point, most part. So for me, I think it's been really important to recognize that I can use area as an operating system for every decision all the time. When you read problem solved my first book, I show you all of the steps and it can look like there are a lot of things that we can do to improve prove our decision making. But the truth is, is that since time is always a factor, once you know area and you know why all the steps exist and how they actually work, you can pick and choose which ones you use, so that you can always have it running in the background. And what I love about the idea of it as an operating system is that it is constantly reminding me to come with inquiry, which is exactly what you and I were doing at that meditation retreat, we were coming to really have the benefit of communal inquiry together, while we were also being in our own heads, and having that experience that everybody is always constantly struggling with the decisions that they face. Right?

Bill Duane:

There's two, two directions, we'll have to choose which one to go to go first. So can you think of an example where you've applied area to yourself in your personal life, and it's been a real benefit into a decision that you made?

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Oh, yeah, I think it's a benefit all the time. And I kick myself when I don't use it, because when I don't use it, I'm just reacting. And you know, I think of meditation as the universal cheat applause. When you think about it, right? It's the space. And it's the time to be here now, to notice what we're thinking. And to literally choose how to respond to our thoughts and feelings, right? It's that investment in our well being, to know that we're giving our minds time and attention, just like we do for our bodies with our food or our exercise. So, you know, I used area to figure out if I was going to go on this huge two month trip, to do work stuff at the same time that my new book Problem Solver was launching, I used it, in order to decide with my youngest child, whether or not we were going to hold him back a year and have him repeat a grade. And whether we were going to have him switch schools to do this, if we were going to do it. And what I find every time that I use it, and I'll speak to the example with my son and holding him back, was that I sat him down. And I said this is going to be a huge decision. This is how we're going to go through it. And I walked him through how we were going to move through it using the area method. And so we had this process that was objective that he understood how and where he could engage with it, how we were going to collect and analyze information. And so at the end of the process, after we'd evaluated these schools, and we talked to school psychologists and on and on, and people who have held their kids back and people who didn't hold their kids back, he was able to say I feel really comfortable with how we went about this, I see the benefits of it. And I'd like you too, to say which way we should go. And I'm going to be happy with that outcome because I really had a chance to, to see and experience what it's like to make a huge decision that's going to change my life like this.

Bill Duane:

And so the decision was to hold back for one year,

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

we not only held him back, we also switched his school, and he is one of these kids who makes friends really easily and keeps them. And so this was just enormous on every level, with the amount of trust that I built with him at a critical stage when he's forming his own identity. And this could make him very angry. And to seem like this is a conflict. We just really built an unbelievable platform of a collaborative decision. Where where I think it has just set us up for for the unbelievable relationship that I get to experience with him now and now he's 21

Bill Duane:

Excellent. The reason why I ask is I actually took an extra year of high school as I was the youngest kid in my class, you know, when I started school, it wasn't a thing to know that being the youngest person in your class was a distinct disadvantage in terms of developmental stuff. And so one is thank you for being the kind of parent that would even entertain that because you are inviting so much complexity and potential difficulty. Knew I feel like I did okay by resetting the clock essentially the end of the high school period. But certainly, I had way more seasoned DS, I mean, my, my mom tells me that the guidance counselor told her that I wasn't college material. So this this can, these sorts of systems can really create harm. And you know, when we look back to this idea of innovation, to even realize it's on the table, to have this degree of agency, but in order to access that agency, it means inviting a lot of complexity and difficulty. But the thing I've really went out with is that when we go to the extra trouble of this investigation, and as you point out with the story about your son is very heartfelt, invested, I mean, it's clearly driven by the values of wanting what's what's best for him. And especially in eighth grade, as we step into this idea of, of having a voice in our own lives, that's part of the output is relational. And I mean, to me, that's what jumps out about the the newest book problem solver. Sorry, go ahead, I

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

was gonna say is that area because of the perspective taking is uniquely built on a collaborative backbone. And so the idea is that you're strengthening your relationships as you make decisions, because relationships without relationships without people getting along. Together, we can't ever really make a decision that holistically solves a problem. But I want to just mention one other thing, you keep talking about complexity, big decisions are messy. They are messy. And the idea is what do you do with all of the possibilities and the emotions and the different information that you gather and need to analyze? An area uniquely shows you what is a system for complex problem solving step by step, following a logical progression, that is a feedback loop. Because it's not linear problem solving, we'd love it to be linear, but it's not, it's circular. At times, you need to go back to gather more information, or to gain new insight. So it gives you the guardrails of how to enter into the chaos, to grant you, the agency that is uniquely yours in a way that can build your confidence. Because we need and can feel so much more comfortable engaging with these big decisions, when we know what it looks like to go through a process in a way that is going to show us the steps.

Bill Duane:

Hmm, amazing. In the same way, I honor you for you know, being a great mom from my perspective, and and going through this process. And it's, you know, my my own operating definition of integrity is your actions match your intentions that you walk the talk and you just give us a great example of how when the stakes are most emotional and dear, that that this method really works. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention my own mom, who stood up for me in the same way that you stood up for your son in this moment to make sure that the the right thing happened. So yeah, thanks, mom. And then, so that brings us into then, in my mind, what's what's most notable about the the newest book is that, you know, when we think about decision making, a lot of times there's this idea, there's a unitary agent, a lot of my work in artificial intelligence, and ethics assumes that there's an individual piloting their way through the world and making decisions and then other agents are then reacting to those. The reality is quite Messier, that the world is full of other people. And in your new book, you talk about these problems solver profiles, where we have our own set of preferences and default. So I was wondering, and which I think is amazing, because then all of a sudden, we're sort of taking all the complexity of what's going on between our own ears, which is and then on top of that, there's a bunch of other people who have all their craziness going on between their own ears. And so tell me about the problem solver profiles and how that

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

maps. Absolutely. So the new book is called problem solver, and it's on the psychology of personal decision making and what I call Problem Solver profiles. What I learned after putting my first two books out into the world problem solved on personal and professional decision making. And then my second book is called Investing in financial research. And it's applying the area method to financial and investment decisions, is it anybody can use area doesn't matter if you're a high school student deciding about where to go to college, somebody mid career, designing a better career decision, or somebody later in life choosing the right aging home facility, everybody can use it. But people use it as they are not as it is, which meant when I was working with the State Department and counter terrorism professionals, they're comfortable with exploration, and interviewing people, but they don't really think that they need absolute and to gather the data. When I'm working with students, they're very comfortable with area, our relative, which looks at literature reviews, and comparing pieces of information against each other. But they might not be comfortable with doing some of the work combatting their cognitive biases in the exploitation phase, and so on. And so what I realized was the missing piece is if we don't use knowledge systems as they are, but as we are, who are we as decision makers. And so what I've identified is that there are five different ways that people tend to approach their decisions. And I call them Problem Solver profiles. And the five are the adventurer, the detective, the listener, the thinker, and the visionary. And each of these profiles are not prescriptive, they're not going to tell you what you're going to do in the future. So they're unlike Myers Briggs and these other tests. Simply, this is who you are, and now fit yourself into the world. Think of problem solver profiles like handedness, you have generally a dominant hand, and you can learn to be ambidextrous, but it's a little uncomfortable, and it takes work. And you can become a more dynamic and different decision maker than you are. But you first need to know which one of these five reo. So the adventurer is somebody who's a decisive decision maker who is optimizing for forward momentum. The detective is the decision maker that sometimes puts data above all else, even before people. And they're optimizing for facts and evidence. The listener is somebody who is optimizing for being able to be inclusive, and hear the opinions and facts of other people. The Thinker is somebody who values understanding the why they are people who are interested in the problem solving even more at times, then the decision making. And so they're optimizing to truly understand their options. And then the visionary. Last but not least, they're the ones that see the rainbows that we just haven't even identified yet. They are the big idea creative people who are generally optimizing for something that is new or novel. Each of these problem solver profiles have beautiful strengths. And each of them come with some core cognitive biases that tend to impede clear thinking. For anybody who is interested in reading, problem solved. I've built a quiz that you can take that will help you self identify into which of these five Problem Solver profiles you are. And then the book obviously takes you through how to understand how to use this information in a very practical and actionable way for you to make better decisions alone and with others.

Bill Duane:

So the obvious question is which one is the right one? Which one is the best one?

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

I always love this question because it misses. It misses. The point of the matter is, is that they're all good. Donald Rumsfeld famously said, you go to war with the army that you have, not the army that you wish you had. Right. So we all have these different stakeholders in our lives, and understanding how they make decisions can help us come to them with the information that they need. We each need different kinds of information, which means we're each good at something, but we each need all of the other profiles. And so by learning about all of them, we can bring in the types of questions and the perspectives that these other problem solver profile would ask us so that we can have a more fulsome understanding of the decision before us to make better decisions.

Bill Duane:

And so for example, a failure mode I can see is, you know, at Google, we were definitely the detectives. I will admit that at one point, I had a sticker on my laptop that said, Fuck you, I have charts and graphs to back me up. And the whole place was full of those titles, I

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

fall into that too. And I want to say a word about intellectual diversity, because that's really what the problem solver profiles show the value of oftentimes, I'll go into companies or organizations, and on first blush, Wow, great diversity, diversity that we can see sometimes with languages and accents, diversity that we can hear. But the truth of the matter is, is we don't see intellectual diversity we've never thought about until now, in problem solver, how is it that we make decisions differently, so even with what looks like diversity, once I use the problem solver profile with teams, you'll all of a sudden see that almost everybody tends to be one particular problem solver profile, and that we are not really getting the benefit of intellectual diversity in our places of work the way we assume we are by having diversity that we can see or hear.

Bill Duane:

Right. And, you know, we started off our conversation talking about values, I think, particularly within disciplines, there tend to be clumping of certain kinds of problem solver profiles, where other ones are, are less valued. So for example, again, a story. At at Google, somebody was saying, well, so So someone was, was arguing to someone else. And she said, Well, you're technically correct. And this person who is an engineer said, that's the best kind of correct, and everyone fell out of their chair laughing. But at the same time, it strikes me that it's an example of that we can have these cultures that hold up some kinds of problem solver profiles, you know, while while valuing other ones less and then that sets us up. And then the other thing is that you know, and you bring this up in a few of your books is the danger of groupthink is that groups, I don't think this gets enough attention. Groupthink feels amazing. When you're in it. You're it's like being in love. You're like we finish each other sentences. It's amazing. But as you point out with that the absence of this sort of intellectual diversity leads to a paucity of different kinds of data. You know, it's and you know, going back to the very beginning of our conversation, is valuing different sorts of intellectual frameworks means that we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are, but we're blind. Like, we had no idea that we were all detectives. And that having, you know, with maybe the odd visionary thrown in for good measure, have you found teams? Yeah, go ahead, I

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

was gonna say is that there are three things that I think are so important about the problem solver profiles, and those three things are lexicon, community and situation ality. So the first thing is until now, and until this book, we haven't had the language to be able to actually talk about different approaches to decision making. And so first, to be able to really think things through we need the language, we need the words because we think in words. So that is one way that the problem solver profiles are so powerful. It gives us the ability to actually wrestle with these ideas, that there are different approaches to decision making. The second is because we can gain an awareness of our own problem solver profiles and the others. We don't have to denigrate the other ways of thinking it's not that he's hasty, or that she is always off on a tangent that we weren't actually discussing. It's that they're optimizing and valuing different things in in their decisions. They're not better or worse than one another. I think that leveling of the playing field is very important from the lexicon. The second idea, the situation out It is the environment that we find ourselves in, and how that can impact our problem solver profiles. This idea that you asked earlier that we could make decisions one way at work. And one way at home, I know for instance, this one doctor who makes decisions all day at work, when he comes home, it kind of infuriates his wife, he refuses to make a decision, because he needs so much willpower at work that he wants to be. He specifically tries to be a different decision maker at home. And you can learn about how you can be a decision maker and a problem solver profile in one way, in one and you and a different way in another and I have cheat sheets for this, and a whole chapter that goes through this, even though of course, you can have a whole book on it. And then the third piece, is this idea of community who we make decisions with, what is that intellectual diversity? What do we do about the fact that we may be missing certain problem solver profiles? And how is it that we can work better together by understanding how our group of problem solver profiles fits together so that we can give each other the kind of information that we need to make decisions in a way that continually helps us move forward and solve problems? Well,

Bill Duane:

right. So you know, we're talking about this inclusivity of our own direct self experience, and then inclusivity at the group decision making level, right, so it sounds like we have both layers going on at once and again, is I think it's really easy to be overwhelmed by that. But one of the things I really like about the work that you do is the ability to deconstruct it in a way that's not reductionist and, and make it actionable. Something you mentioned was this idea of, of lexicon, and applying, you know, analytical tools to this very human part. I'm curious, so something that's been really important for me in my own life, and also in in my professional life is the role of emotion and nonverbal data. So essentially, just to provide a quick recap as the enteric nervous system of of where emotions are felt evolved prior to our species ability to use language, and as a result, the data that it sends is nonverbal. And people like me, like in my 20s, I went through this spell of like, emotions are bullshit, like the world would be better without emotion. And as we say, in engineering, that's the naive approach, because it's so nonverbal, non declarative memory, non narrative. Cognition is such a core part of human cognition, you just can't wish it away. And I think people that do, like I did run the risk of cutting themselves off from a very valuable rich source of data. So we're rounding the bend on an actual question. So a lot of times our creativity comes in this nonverbal, less analytical, more somatic, more embodied, mentioned, sources of data where it comes across as a as a feeling. So how do these nonverbal how does this nonverbal data fit into everything you've talked about, because of course, it happens within us as our own individual selves, but also it becomes massive at the at the interpersonal level. So I

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

want to address that. But I also want to go back to something else that you said about solo decisions. I think that's a huge disservice to think of our decisions as solo. And I think that's something that area and my books really addresses, there's almost no decision that you're going to make that at some level doesn't impact somebody else. And that is why this idea of having a collaborative backbone in your decision making process with area is is so powerful, because we can't solve any of the problems in the world if we can't have an opportunity to build relationships. So we're never truly so low when we make a decision. As for the role of emotion, I have an article that you can look up in Harvard Business Review that I wrote a little while back called emotions are not the enemy of decision. Making, because the idea is that our emotions are important information. We don't necessarily want to react to that information, but we may, it's telling us something. So if we can use a system like area, and use the problem solver profiles, we can have an opportunity to have the cheetah pause to strategically stop and label the emotion. What am I feeling? Am I feeling something that is related to this decision? Or am I feeling something that's related to my past that may not be appropriate? What do I think in the exploration phase of area, for example, that I'm seeing or experiencing with somebody else? When you are conducting a conversation, or an interview, you're exactly right, that you're receiving multi sensory information, right? You're hearing something, you're seeing something and you're you're feeling something, and the way that the person's body language is talking? is information that you want to respond to? Do they seem comfortable in the conversation? Why are why not? And what can you do to help be able to strengthen that relationship while you're gathering information and engaging together? So I think labeling the emotion becomes very important. And I have this idea I call emotional bookending. When you're making a big decision with a team, for example, if you can ask everybody, how are you feeling about going into this project or this decision making, you have an opportunity to better understand who are the problem solver profiles, right in front of you, sometimes you can ask somebody to take the problem solver profile quiz. And I also have cheat sheets that can help you to diagnose when you have an opportunity to sit down with with the cheat sheet to figure out somebody else's problem solver profile if they don't take the test, but sometimes asking these questions and using the emotional bookending by hearing what concerns they have what the emotion is at the outset of problem solving, you have a window into what's the problem solver profiles in front of me, therefore, what are they optimizing for? What are they going to need? And then you can say them? Well, how do we want to feel when we finished this. And that also gives a tremendous amount of information. Some people want to feel comfortable that they're going to meet the deadline. Some people want to feel comfortable that they've made the best possible decision. Some people are going to want to feel like they've made the best decision possible. These are each different, different things. And so understanding the emotional journey that somebody needs to take and problem solving can help give a place for those emotions and give you information about the problem solving approach.

Bill Duane:

I love that. And it makes me think of my mentor Phillip Moffitt encourages to think about feeling goals versus doing goals. A lot of times we we give ourselves doing goals or outcome or metrics goals, because there's an implicit assumption about how they'll make us feel. But a lot of times when we hit our doing goals, we're like, oh, actually, the Vice President title didn't fill the hole that additional resources or assets didn't fill the hole. But it's really important to say how we want to feel. And I think in particular, you know, one thing that resounds through the work is like how do I feel safe? In a complicated world, like safe as I define it not and with the cars safe might feel like, oh, I took the right amount of risk.

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

You're speaking as a detective. Now I'm a detective too. And detectives do like to feel safe. And we feel safe with the data. But the adventurer, and the visionary in particular, are not looking for safety. I am so blessed to work with my colleague, Emma at decisive and she is an adventurer. And it constantly reminds me that the world is even bigger than I think it is. And so if I don't know that what we're just because detectives might be optimizing for safety. That's not That's not the viewpoint of all the different problem solver profiles. And we each can be optimizing for something different and still use area and the idea that the system can help anybody get to an outcome in their own way recognize I think that we do it differently. But following the steps can help all the different problem solver profiles to help mitigate some of our own limitations, so that we have an opportunity to get something that is more fulsome than maybe we initially imagined. Because there's oftentimes some serendipity that just changes the picture for us.

Bill Duane:

I think so and then, you know, as I mentioned, we we met in a context of people that were under, you know, a group of people getting together. And one of the things I love is the ability is we don't have to stay in our lane. So for instance, as someone with with with my background, who was very, very curious, loves learning, and had some challenges growing up, safety is a very reasonable thing. But I don't know about you. But I don't want to live on uneven trajectory, I don't want to live an extrapolation of what was in the past. So I think one of the things that models like yours really show us is that we can be detectives who put on their visionary hat, or their adventure hat, or really see the value of people who take us out of our comfort level, right with those with those kinds of things. And so I think part of any any sort of categorization method like this allows us to honor I mean, again, is I think one of the key words in your work is it is radically inclusive. Right, it's not, what I want

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

to say about the problem solver profiles is that I said earlier that they're not prescriptive. And once you have an awareness of them, I invite you to try on some of these other problem solver profiles that are a little bit uncomfortable for you go on a vacation as an adventurer, buy insurance, like a detective, plan to dinner party, like a visionary. You just take one example. For instance, say you're having a dinner party, right, the adventurer might go to the supermarket, and see the beautiful tomatoes, and just decide that the meal is going to be around the tomatoes, right? A detective might go with her list. And she might have thought about what it is that she wants to make. And she has her recipes. Right, the listener might have talked to everybody first figured out all the food allergies, and makes the menu before going to the supermarket that is going to make sure that everybody is safe for their eating requirements, the thinker is going to wonder how everybody is going to have the best time and is going to compare different options, one against the other. And think about which one of the meals is going to be more successful, the visionary might come up with a theme for the dinner party and go to the supermarket, and might even prepare an entire meal of things that she's never cooked before. So you can see how you could take this idea of the problem solver profiles. And in just small ways, you could try engaging with your decisions from a totally different lens. And what I like about this is that discomfort is not a bad thing. That's where the learning is, that's where the growth is. And we can grow and change and appreciate the different decision making approaches by noticing that they're available for us to try on in different ways so that we can have an opportunity to continue to experience ourselves in new ways and be better.

Bill Duane:

Hmm, amazing. So having heard all that, I have an idea for your next book. I know I know you're you're you're you're doing book is just coming out but for the next book. I am someone who has fairly recently a detective who has fallen head over heels in love with an adventurer visionary. So maybe maybe sort of problem solver profile dating service because if you really if you really want to go on the adventure, if you really try falling in love with somebody who has a different way of seeing the world and cognizing it and I gotta say it is as you mentioned, it is not comfortable. It is not easy, but it is amazingly fun.

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Well that is wonderful. I do think that events are amazingly fun and having a dish tactic, when an adventure visionary is a wonderful combination, because adventures keep you moving, and they want to help you try new things. And the visionary is dreaming up all sorts of wonderful possibilities. And the detective can help ground both of those. And also help an adventurer and a visionary. To complete things adventurous, don't really have trouble completing things, but visionaries love beginnings. They love, love starting. And the detective doesn't have to be the stick in the mud. The adventurer, the detective, can instead help the visionary to realize her vision by helping,

Bill Duane:

amazing. So I want to thank you so much, you know, we covered so much ground from how do we as professionals, to humans, and, you know, I think technolon would be very appreciative of what you've said, noting that we are not individuals that we are radically interconnected, and really bringing, you know, on the one hand is it's this message of radical inclusion at multiple layers that doesn't seek to simplify the world as it is, but instead embraces it. But also in a really practical way. The nerd in me really appreciates the way that you're able to reference all of your cheat sheets and and these books that revolve around a similar thing, but express themselves in different ways. If people want to learn more about what you're doing, and get a hold of some of these resources, which is a good way for them to investigate and learn more about your work.

Cheryl Strauss Einhorn:

Well, thank you so much. This has just been a wonderful, interesting conversation. I so appreciate it. To learn more about me, please visit area method.com. It's a r e a method.com. And on my website, you can learn about my books and about decisive and the way that we work with companies and organizations and individuals to really do four things, to create curriculum, and teach courses to offer professional and leadership development to companies and organizations to provide coaching to individuals for specific decisions that they have, or general executive coaching, and also to read about our articles and books and our podcast, problem solved, which is about the decisions that other people are making and how they make their big decisions better. Thank you so much.

Bill Duane:

Wonderful. You're very welcome. Thank you for coming on and teaching us how to get off autopilot and into the complexity of our lives. Thank you