Creative Abrasion, DEI and Soap Bubbles with Dr. Roxy Manning

Bill Duane: 0:00

Hi, welcome to the Heart of Innovation Podcast. I'm Bill Duane, former Google engineering executive and superintendent of wellbeing and courage consultant and speaker on innovation strategy. We're going to be diving deep into the internal innovation that unlocks external innovation and the surprisingly practical ways we can become better innovators. We'll be in conversation with innovators from many different backgrounds and contexts including business, science, social change and technology and not only benefit from their expertise, but also their personal stories of their innovation journey. Today, we're joined by the estimable and joyous Dr. Roxy Manning, a clinical psychologist and certified Center for Nonviolent Communication trainer. She brings decades of service experience to her work interrupting explicitly and implicitly oppressive attitudes and cultural norms. Dr. Manning has consulted across the US and over 10 countries with individuals and groups committed to social change, creating what she calls the Beloved Community. She also works as a psychologist in San Francisco serving the homeless and disenfranchised mentally ill population. She is author of two books you should absolutely buy when they come

out in a few weeks: 1:06

How to Have Antiracist Conversations - Embracing Our Full Humanity to Challenge White Supremacy, and the co-author with Sarah Peyton of the companion text, The Antiracist Heart - A Self Compassion and Activism Handbook. So Roxy, thank you so much for being here. I've been looking forward to us chatting since the last time we chatted. I appreciate you being here.

Roxy Manning: 1:28

Thank you, Bill. I'm so excited.

Bill Duane: 1:32

One other thing that occurred to me when I was thinking about, anticipating, us chatting was, I think, in addition to the who you are and the content is, I think everybody should have a friend named Roxy. It just occurred like when I saw. I'm so glad that our friend, Phoenix, introduced us. And then I really enjoyed us, us chatting. And I was like, Oh, I now have a friend named Roxy. I think that is intrinsically awesome. I just wanted to say.

Roxy Manning: 1:59

I love it. I'm going to send that back to like my five year old self, who thought my name was a little bit odd.

Bill Duane: 2:06

Is there a story behind your name? Do you have a relative named Roxy? or

Roxy Manning: 2:10

No. My dad actually loved Cyrano de Bergerac and decided to name me, Roxanne. And so that's my name.

Bill Duane: 2:18

Oh, that's fantastic. Oh, I love that. Okay, so jumping in with the usual question for this podcast? What's your definition of innovation? Or what does innovation mean to you?

Roxy Manning: 2:34

So for me, innovation is anything that helps to advance the human condition. And bottom line. And that can be in any different many, many, many formats. It can be technological innovation, which is making it easier for us to do things. But it can also be psychological info, innovation. What's going to help us live happier, more well-fulfilled lives. And I think that's an area of innovation that sometimes has lagged behind as there's been so much focus in the last 100, 150 years on the technological innovation.

Bill Duane: 3:08

So one of the things you're an expert in, is Nonviolent Communication. Some people might not be already familiar with that. I was wondering if you can explain a little bit about what it is and how it came to be?

Roxy Manning: 3:22

Sure. So Nonviolent Communication has been around since the 60s, when a psychologist, Dr. Marshall B. Rosenberg, was looking at what was happening in the civil rights movement in the United States. And one of the things that he was stunned by was people, black people, who were experiencing so much hatred, and so much pushback, were still saying, I'm going to show up, I'm going to fight for social change, and I'm going to do it nonviolently. So they were taking all of this hatred that was being sent to them, and composting it, and channeling it into this energy of social change. And that's what he wanted to figure out. Like, how do we get this accessible to everyone else. And so Nonviolent Communication brings in threads of learning and knowledge from a whole bunch of different fields. And it combines it into how we relate to each other, a consciousness. And then also there's a four step process that's a communication model that supports this consciousness of how we want to be with each other.

Bill Duane: 4:24

Hmm. And one of the things that is really wild for me is given its its origin story is that, you know, Nonviolent Communication, or NVC, is really popular in the tech world, which is where I became to it. It's one of this I mean, I take it as being really hopeful that yeah, that that, that this thing that came out of the civil rights movement has found really such a fertile ground in the in the tech industry.

Roxy Manning: 4:53

Yeah. And I think it's partly because of what Nonviolent Communication is trying to do. So, I was married to someone in the tech industry. And I know that one of the things that was true, at least for this person, is that he was an overachiever, right? He was always focused on, I'm going to be a great student. I'm going to really understand and develop the tech role, and wasn't always as connected to himself. And Nonviolent Communication provides a really great way to both connect to and understand myself, and then to take that connection and use it to understand other people. So it's a 'how to' that I think, is really effective for not just tech folks, but everyone.

Bill Duane: 5:32

Yeah, and I think you put your finger right on it. Because it takes an area that seems very squishy, of all the things about connecting to yourself and connecting to other people. And it basically says, here's how to do it. And it's intrinsically normative. I had a therapist who had a great line, you know, he said, people who espouse brutal honesty tend to be in it for the brutality part of it. So the honesty.

Roxy Manning: 5:59

I love what you said about Nonviolent Communication is the how to manual. And I think that's what's been missing for so many of us. As a psychologist, I was told, empathy is the key to like a really successful therapeutic relationship. But no one told me what empathy was. And that's one of the things I learned through Nonviolent Communication.

Bill Duane: 6:24

And you mentioned four steps. So I think it's I mean, the thing that is really useful, it's like, well, one is contained within it is we can get better at this. And boy, is that such a relief for anybody who struggled with empathy or compassion or even being understood to have a stepwise way of addressing this? Would you mind on unpacking those?

Roxy Manning: 6:46

Sure. So the four steps and we call them OFNR. Like if you ever hear NVC, you'll hear OFNR also as an acronym. It's Observations, Feelings, Needs, and Requests. And when we think about observations, we, like classic NVC talked about what's happening out there in the world that everyone can see and agree upon. And I've expanded that a little bit to talk about, I want to observe what's happening out in the real world, but I also want to observe what's happening internally inside of myself. Right? What are my judgments and thoughts? I'm not pushing them away and saying they're bad. I'm just owning them as when this thing happened out there, something also happened inside of me. And what was that thing? And then I also talk about systemic observations. Because we, we don't live in a vacuum. We live in a world where there's a certain context happening. And I like people to think about, what's the context in which you're moving? What are some of the patterns that are happening in the world that you're seeing? So observations is the first step. And part of the goal of observations in Nonviolent Communication is that whenever I talk to somebody else about something, I want to know, what are we talking about? What do we agree upon? And I don't know if you've ever had a conversation with somebody - like there's a conflict. You're having a conversation, and y'all are arguing back and forth and realize you're not even talking about the same thing. And so we talk about observations in NVC to make sure we're actually talking about the same thing, before we go to the next steps. The second step, feelings, is basically our feelings. What's going on inside of me? What are my emotions? How am I reacting to what's happening, what this observation is. And then the really key part in Nonviolent Communication is that if I have a feeling, it's because I have needs. There's some important need that's met, or not met, that stimulating my feelings. And for me, this was mind blowing. I was told that. I often thought I felt some way because you did something to me, right? So if you called me this word, that I'm going to have a feeling. And it put all of the power, in some ways, in your hands. You could make me feel a certain way. And NVC reclaims that power by saying, No. When I have a feeling, even if you call me a word, I have a need that's met or not met when you say that. And so if my - here's like one that comes up a lot. People always like, why can't I use the N word, right? If I want to be really bold about this. And I always tell people that context matters. If a random person called me the N word as a black person, I don't know you, I don't know anything about you. So when I hear that word, it stimulates a lot of meaning about disrespect, about the ways that black folks had been treated in our society. And so my needs for respect, for care, are not met. I feel angry. But if my homeboy down the street calls me the N word, it's like we're also acknowledging shared identity, shared culture, and all of a sudden my needs for belonging for being part of the community are met, and I might feel warmth. And so that word does not exist independently of the context and what it's meant for different people to say it. So NVC kind of connects us to those needs to help us understand our feelings. And then the last step is requests. Once I understand what are my needs, what am I feeling, what am I going to do about it? And this is so transformative. It's not just the kind of like, someone calls it belly button gazing, right? It's not just looking and saying, Okay, I understand this was going on. Like, so now say something, ask for something that's going to help change, or give you more of what it is that you're enjoying.

Bill Duane: 10:28

And one of the things I love about that idea of, of it being contextual, is it offers this possibility, I love the phrase, like when someone lives in your head. And you know, our biological interwiring is so complicated that literally someone can take over our internal experience by providing us external stimuli by cutting us off in traffic or saying something to it. And what I like about this model is it doesn't privilege one side. It doesn't really in terms of responsibility, privilege, one side. Is we actually, there's something we can do. Again, this is a methodology for someone to have a little bit of internal independence from our, from our from our external, like the data, the the information that we're taking in, while also not saying, Oh, it's all on the shoulders of the individual to be more resilient.

Roxy Manning: 11:27

Absolutely. And you've kind of actually targeted one of the places where I think people misunderstand Nonviolent Communication, and think that it's putting all of responsibility on the person who's experienced pain, right? So what's important for me to recognize is Nonviolent Communication acknowledges that when you do something, you're the stimulus. That my feelings are not completely independent of the external world. And I want to acknowledge, like, yeah, I don't want to be a stimulus for this unmet need for you. So it doesn't sever responsibility. It just acknowledges it and it also includes my awareness of my internal state and how that impacts my reactions.

Bill Duane: 12:09

Hmm, beautiful. And I'd love to loop that back around to the first thing you said about innovation being this method of creating something that's wholesome. And this is the reason why, for me and my work in innovation, I think all these ideas of communication are so important because for me that there's a connection between the ability to disagree generatively and, and innovation. So, you know, for me, the the ROI for diversity is diversity opens up more paths of possibility. So the famous example that Google was the first Youtube app was unusable by left handed people, because there were no left handed people on the design team. And they're all holding up their phones be like, this is the best thing ever. And all the south paws were like, Yeah, you die in a fire. I just, I can't use this at all. And so there's the idea that. But on the other hand, that team was like, Oh, my God, we're doing such a good job, because in the absence of different points of view. And there's a term for this called creative abrasion, that I love because I think there's a certain expectation that any sort of diversity work, not just formal DEI work within its own cone, but anything where we have to disagree, that it's automatically pleasant. And you know, one of the things that you brought up is, this idea of, are we talking about the same thing? Like it's, it's really easy to get into a heated argumentative state, against like a perceived value that's coming in. So for me the connection between everything that you've been saying up until now, and the reason why I love your work so much is like knowing how to knowing how to navigate creative abrasion, for me, is is a is a crucial way of actually, I don't think you can do innovation without it. But I'll add one other thing and then and then get your take on it. Is we have this myth of the lone hero, innovator, and inventor. And, you know, a lot of times that's the person whose name is on the door. We can look at Edison, we can look at Jobs. And you know, they tend to be people that are already at the top of the social stack. And I do think that there is a huge role for the lightning rod, the instigator, the visionary, all of that, but none of these happen without a group of people. And for me, the more diverse that group of people is coming up with it, the more the possibility of one, something unique coming you know, have and then two, is of it being wholesome rather than extractive

Roxy Manning: 15:01

Oh, I love this. There's so many things you said that I'm really loving. One of the things that I think is really important is this recognition that diversity isn't easy, right? It's both not easy and it's incredibly essential. That when we are only looking at one side of the coin, etc, we're missing so much. And the other piece that I'm really, and I'm gonna say some more about that. But the other piece that I just want to celebrate is this idea that we want to pay attention to when we're being extractive. When we're not including people in the design phase, in the planning phase, in the decision making phase, but we're stealing their ideas, using it, and then kind of keeping them out of the room. So there's so much there to also talk about. I want to go back though, to this piece around, okay, if diversity isn't easy. What do we do? How do we have the conversations? How do I challenge or how do I open myself up to being challenged about something that I've held for a long time as my truth, and that everyone around me says is the truth. I imagine that those first conversations in Google, when you were describing this YouTube app, right. That first brave lefty who said, "Wait a second, this was completely unusable," had to do a lot of work. They had to like both validate their experience, trust that it was worth bringing to everyone else, and then persist with whatever pushback they were getting from people who are saying, "What are you talking about? We all are fine with this," right. And this is part of what we need to do when we're talking about diversity. That we need to like, instead of saying,"Hey, you're wrong, we all got it" we need to say, "Whoa, what am I missing? What perspective am I not seeing?"

Bill Duane: 16:45

Well, I'll tell you, I'll share a story. It's an embarrassing one to share about just how awesome being exclusionary can feel. So I was at a Google leadership training event. Multiple days, very emotionally intelligent. And we were all in these little cohorts of about five or six people going through the journey together. And it was amazing, because my cohort we were all communicating via like memes and movie references and song references. And it felt so good. It was so easy. It was like it was like being on ice skates. I mean, the the phrase that comes to mind is like, imagine if you're on a train, and the wheels are made of ice and the rails are made of ice and it's perfectly straight. It was just it. And it felt fantastic. It was we really giddy with how much we liked each other. One of the people in our group was from Finland. And one of the things they do to help you get real at the end of it is you all just get together and hang out and have drinks. And after we've been hanging out for a while the Finnish guy said, "Hey, listen, I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade because you were having such a great time. But I have to say this was one of the loneliest weeks I've ever had." He said, "I haven't seen any of these movies. I haven't listened to any of this music. I'm about eight years older than you." And he said, "But I just couldn't bring myself to break up your good time." Yeah, and all of us. So there's a couple things that left us really intensely crestfallen. One is this, this notion that harm was done without intention, but just this sick feeling of, of being exclusionary felt amazing. I think there's this idea that we're like twirling a mustache and wearing a top hat when we make these kind of mistakes. But that was, that was a huge learning. And as a result, his discomfort in in being the bad guy and saying I have no idea what you're talking about deprived the group of his input. And from, you know, Finnish culture is remarkably different than California culture.

Roxy Manning: 19:07

There's something that you're naming that I just want to really point out, because I think this is where Nonviolent Communication comes in. You're saying and I'm both like loving the vulnerability in which you're sharing this. But you're naming that being exclusionary felt wonderful. And I would want to change that language around. Because I don't think any of y'all were going, I'm being exclusionary, right. You were just kind of vibing and really, like you said,on that like smooth sailing ice with everyone else. And I think when we talk about diversity, this is one of the things that happens. Y'all had no clue you were being exclusionary and you still had an impact. And so it's how do we balance that? Like holding yourself with a lot of compassion, and really understanding the joy you were feeling? You know, that wonderful part when Oh, wow, here are all of these people who get me who dig the same things I dig. And then the sickening feeling of and that joy was devastating for someone else. And this is, I think, is one of the big challenges that happens when organizations and groups are trying to deal with diversity. That when people hear what you were just doing that felt so good to you was horrible for me. They don't know how to deal with that. And they collapse. They either lash out at the message giver, or they take on all of this blame and self judgment that prevents them from showing up to create change.

Bill Duane: 20:33

Yeah, I mean, this is why I think this sort of work is so it's just so non optional. And you know, one of the things I hope with doing. You know, part of the reason why I'm engaged in this work of focusing on innovation is we have a lot of systems that are crumbling. Sometimes it's good these systems are crumbling - stuff around race, stuff around gender. Other things, it's terrifying that they're crumbling, like the biosphere. In In either case, we need to figure out new ways of doing things and everything you just mentioned about this very, this dance of disagreement and vulnerability and meaning and impact, in addition to, I think, intrinsically having ethical weight to it, I think it has this huge practical impact. And in particular, you're mentioning it. You know, it's not obvious that there's a huge relationship between shame and innovation. But how many times do we live small, even in this case. You know, there's this idea of, we could have had input from this person the whole time. And then but the fact of the learning of that can be so painful that there's even a chance that we won't be able to withstand the knowledge because of that shame. And I think this is something that I love about your work is it's so it's so tender, and and expert in this handling of traversing these parts of which. And I think part of it is NVC and then part of it is I think what you bring to it, of of how do we traverse these places so we can actually hold these learnings in a way that that we can stand? And so I'm curious. Yeah, I'll just leave it there are questions or thoughts about shame and learning and

Roxy Manning: 22:23

I feel, I'm actually feeling really tender, as I hear you talk about this dance that we need to do. And I want to talk about the dance from both perspectives. So in the story that you shared, I'm going to call you the actor. You and your group are the actors, you are the people who are doing something completely unintentionally, in this case, that had an impact on the Finnish guy who I'm going to call the receiver. And in both cases, for both the actor and the receiver, we have to navigate this dance of shame. So I want to talk about the receiver first, when we're talking about diversity, he had to go pass any shame and any self judgments he had. Like, I've been in that situation where I'm thinking, I should know this movie, I should know this song. What's wrong with me? Like, why am I not part of this, like in-group with this popular culture? And he had to withstand all of that, and still say, and it's worth me telling you what my experience is. That is really hard. And a lot of people. One of the one of the things I hear from a lot of folks in that actor role is, "Well, why didn't you say something?" And it's because they're not aware of just how painful it is, and how vulnerable it is to say, "I don't actually know these things that you're talking about" and still hold yourself with a lot of compassion. So that's the first piece, that even just speaking up to name when there's an impact like that requires a lot of self compassion, and a lot of trust in the other person, that they're gonna want to hear you, that they're going to receive you, and that something can actually be done. But then I think about the actors also, right, it's exactly like you said, when I get that message that I've done something that had an impact on someone else, it's so easy to fall into shame. And the shame blocks us from being able to, and sometimes even wanting to hear more. And we can't create change in our world, if we don't create the conditions for people to give us these hard messages. And so I always tell people, none of us or very few people that I know, I actually know some folks who have, but very few people have grown up in a way that frees them from shame. That tells them, oh, when you've made a mistake, that's part of being human, and we could mourn it and regret it and we don't have to beat ourselves up about it right. A lot of us were raised where we were told the way to make you be a good person is to shame you so that you would never do that again. So once we understand that, that this is part of, for so many of us, our human condition We can take that shame and I call it composting it. I don't have to like run away from my shame. I don't have to hide it. Just compost it and say what is the shame pointing to? What is it trying to nurture and grow in me? And then act on that need? Right? So when I think about the shame that you were naming as you heard this person speak, what was important to you? What were you regretting, as you heard him and heard his experience?

Bill Duane: 25:27

One was a sense of shame that something that had been harmful to him made me feel giddy and gleeful. So that impedance mismatch of experience of. You know, I think there's something when you say something, and you're, you just don't know and you get told, like, oh, okay. But with this one, the fact that it felt so amazing, that there was a cognitive, maybe not even a cognitive, but an affective dissonance might be a better a better word for that where. You know, it's one thing to do something with ill intention, it's one thing to do things with ignorance, but this just seemed like, a little bit different given, given how fantastic it felt. So, you know, for me, you know, the learning of like, monocultures feel great if you're on the inside.

Roxy Manning: 26:19

Yeah. And so even this piece though around, like when I think about how to compost, that shame that you were feeling about this affective dissonance, it's kind of pointing to so what is it that's important to you? And I want to check, I'm guessing in that moment, you realize how much you want to trust, that when you're feeling really great about something, that you're living in alignment with all of your values, which include inclusion and care for everyone else. Does that feel true?

Bill Duane: 26:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Roxy Manning: 26:50

Yeah. And so whenever I notice, like, okay, so this is what the shame is pointing to - that this was a moment when I was living out of alignment with my values, then I start to ask myself, so is there something I can ask of myself, that will help realign this? Is there some way in your case that you could then go back to that person and help him feel included, help him feel a part of the same kind of giddy joy and alignment that you were feeling? And that would be one of the ways to work through that shame - to hear his message, not let it make you collapse, but to lead you into an action that you

Bill Duane: 27:23

Yeah, I'm, I'm basking in the light of your could take? expertise and your wisdom. And noting that, you know, one of the services that you offer is coaching of the kind you are just helping me with. I've often been. I would wonder, so obviously, one on one coaching is expensive and hard to get to. Have you ever thought about writing a book with some of these concepts?

Roxy Manning: 27:53

You are funny. Absolutely. In fact, I've just written two books. One book is called How to Have Antiracist Conversations. And it basically outlines all of these concepts. It's a brief introduction to Nonviolent Communication, and to thinking about how to apply it to DEI issues, especially. And then the other book is the how to book. It's like, okay, so I get it, I understand the concepts. And I noticed I have a lot of challenges and blocks coming up inside of myself. How do I unpack those blocks so that I can actually move in the direction I want to? So it's a handbook with lots of exercises and activities to help people find where they're feeling stuck, and take action?

Bill Duane: 28:37

Because that imagine anybody who just heard that interchange between us was like, Oh, could I get some of that? The answer is, is yes, you can. And, you know, I'm very grateful that you've taken your knowledge and put it in a form that's so again, looping back to the beginning, designed to be very actionable, and, and methodological, to sort of enter into this into this dance. Another area where I think the ideas that you espouse and innovation are really connected is our relationship with complexity and ambiguity. You know, something that that, you know, you say on your website is that many different realities can be true simultaneously. And a few minutes ago, you mentioned that, you know, on the one hand is it's so important to be true and authentic to your lived experience, and then also realizing that lived experience can vary widely. So I'm curious what are your thoughts between this idea of how the way that we communicate with each other can help us explore and also just what the you know, what's, what's the human minds relationship to complexity and ambiguity? And I think when we take on innovation work we are, we are choosing to leave a state of knowing and solid ground and really stepping into not knowing and groundlessness.

Roxy Manning: 30:06

And I think like, when you ask this question, the first thing that came to me was that we are on a spectrum. And I think that's really important for people to understand where they are in relation to complexity and ambiguity. Some folks are very much around order and predictability. And they have really high needs for that. And other folks would like, give me chaos, it, the more like crazy and wild it is, the better it is. And it's really easy, depending on where you are to say that my way is the right way. The folks who love predictability, look down on the folks who want that kind of freewheeling ambiguity. The folks who want spontaneity are like, Oh, that person is a little bit rigid. And so even there, it's kind of acknowledging that multiple truths can be real, right? That your ambiguity is real thing. My your love of ambiguity is real, my love of predictability is real. And they don't have to clash. That I can acknowledge like this is what's true for me and what's coming up in this moment is how much I feel uncertain and shaky when you're doing your spontaneity thing. And I want to ask you about this, and I want to make requests around what would support me.

Bill Duane: 31:20

I love that idea that there is automatic assumptions about what correct is. And you know, in some of the look, we look at chaos theory and complexity theory, there's the idea that, you know, whether or not something is more routinized or more up in the air, whether or not that skillful is highly context dependent. So I work with a few biotech firms. And on the on the one hand is the like coming up with new ways of creating devices or treatments. You, you want that to be very wild, very free thinking very association. But then there's a funnel, given that this is going to be used on on humans, of safety. Where you don't want any ambiguity in the manufacturing portion of it, you know. You don't want to have anybody be freestyling in terms of what what ends up in, in your pills. But I think without this ability to articulate at this moment, I think, predictability and order is really important to serve these ends, otherwise, we're just on this autopilot of assumption. And I think because a lot of times our relationship to complexity and ambiguity is so brain stem-y. It's it's fear, or it's love, that it doesn't even occur to us to unpack it in in the way that that you mentioned it before.

Roxy Manning: 32:40

I love that you said that because I think this is the question we need to ask ourselves. Whenever I notice that I'm having a strong reaction that I want something in this way - I want order or I want more creativity - another good question to ask is, and what purpose is it serving, right? So order, just like a blanket blanket, desire for order in every context, doesn't actually serve exactly like you named. I can't be innovative if I'm always keeping things locked down really tight. So I need to ask myself for this reason, for this purpose, is order the right strategy, the right approach. And if I can connect to not just order for the sake of order, but order for this purpose, then it's a lot easier to get people on board. I imagine even the person who loves like creativity and chaos is saying, Well, of course I want human bodies to be safe with this medical device. This is the moment when we need order. But we need to be able to articulate this is the reason why I'm asking for this principle to be followed, rather than this is the right way all the time.

Bill Duane: 33:47

You know, something that's come up a few times in our previous conversations, and in this conversation is the difference between, and the relationships between, the individual and the group and that they're, again, in this in this very complicated dance. One thing I think it's really important is, you know, how did what are the systems people were involved in and what did they think about order. So for example, in the military in the Navy, like you get in trouble if you operate a fire extinguisher without having passed the fire extinguisher exam, so very, highly routinized. And there's lots of good reasons for that. However, if you've come up in that environment, the idea of anything, that's where the automatic solution to any problem is process and procedure, and nailing it down. So at the same time, that when you're talking before about an internal awareness of what's my relationship, how when I was my brainstem respond to various levels of activity or non activity, it's also what are the norms I grew up with? And what are the systems and in particular, the norms of organizations and groups.

Roxy Manning: 34:58

And when I hear you say that, it reminds me that in some ways, it's easier to apply this when I start to think about what are my organization's norms, right? So if I'm in the military, it's like we prize order. We prize like rules and following these things, and people get that. But what's less, what's more opaque to people is that we also grow up in these systems. And they unconsciously influence when I have the sense of, ooh, something is off here. Something's not right. I remember, I was leading a retreat once, and there was somebody from Sri Lanka at the retreat. And at this retreat, it was a Nonviolent Communication retreat, quite amusedly. And at the retreat, a lot of people had a very clear sense of this is the order that we're following. There are these four step NVC process, we don't talk about stories very much. The person from Sri Lanka was like, stories are part of how we connect. Like, I can't even start the NVC process, unless we've shared a story, something that's connecting us to kind of like our past experience and our family experience. And they kept clashing because the person from Sri Lanka was seeing the Western NVC folks as being very rigid and kind of rule bound. And the NVC folks were just like, he's wasting so much time. And I think neither was aware of how their norms about how to relate to it to people was impacting what they were expecting from in the moment, and what they felt comfortable with.

Bill Duane: 36:31

Huh, right. So there's you bring up, we were talking about the military a little bit, the military is fascinating for me, because it is so routinized at one level, in order to make the most chaotic of situations safe and effective. Right. So it's almost like floating on top of all this. And you know, I think in particular around combat, and it's a relatively limited number of people that get involved in that highly emergent violence. But it's really interesting that that there's almost like two layers, there's almost like the, you know, I think the best combat leaders are the ones that are very, very, can stand on that foundation, and then go into that very supple, alive area of of emergence. And the way I'm relating that to the story you were just telling about the retreat is that both like both are both are true. And I think we can oversimplify it by saying this situation demands this response as being skillful. But there's almost this idea of slipping in between those. So with the person, you know, I'm really thinking about, there are certain cases where reverting to stories and archetypes is such an efficient way of quickly communicating something. And I think emotion also follows into that form. But it may seem that that's not routinized. Or, or it's not, it's not step wise, given the process. So that idea that slipping between the two I think is the for for me, I think is is the is the point where the mastery really takes over.

Roxy Manning: 38:10

Yeah, I. So connected to this, for me, is this idea of with the military, they're very. It's like, I can almost game out all of the different situations that we might experience. And so that expert, that leader that you were describing, needs to be supple in a very small number of situations I'm imagining, right, but because many of them are already laid out. In human interactions, it's like I have no idea where you're going to go. And so it also requires more skill from us. And for many of us, we almost want to fall back into the this is what I'm expecting, because it requires less of that supple, and creativity. It requires less brainpower in a way to navigate if I can say this is what I'm expecting, this is what I'm comfortable with, I'm going to be this train on this track, rather than every conversation becomes this wildly unpredictable thing.

Bill Duane: 39:06

Right, which in certain cases is what's needed. On the other hand, just to really honor that there's a huge cognitive load in that, which brings up this idea of the interpersonal. I mean, I think one of the things where NVC can really help is to have some curiosity about helping someone else interrogate their own container. When I when I talk about self awareness. Self awareness, a lot of times we, you know, we in tech, we'd call this out of band monitoring. And I think both in terms of we can help so if we're in a group of whatever kind, where there's this cognitive abrasion coming up, you know, to have the baseline of trust and vulnerability where you can ask someone to help you interrogate your own perspective and container or in a in a loving, gentle way, get someone to see, hey, FYI, you're a fish and you're wet. And they're like, what?

Roxy Manning: 40:09

Yeah. I'm going back to the story you shared about that team meeting, that team retreat and the Finnish person. And it feels like this is also one of those places, right? I wonder what it would have been like, for both you and the Finnish person to do that interrogation of their own container? For you all to look around and say, Gosh, this is going so well, I'm enjoying it so much. And who's participating? Right? If everyone had checked to see, like, is everyone participating in the conversation? Have I heard everyone's voice? Then ya'll might have been able to notice like, Oh, I wonder if he's not participating because, you know, he's just naturally quiet? Which I'm imagining is probably what you're, you're probably thinking, oh, yeah, he's probably just fine. Or is there something else wrong? So it's even that piece of like looking and noticing? What am I not seeing? Or what am I not paying attention to, could be really important. And similarly, for the Finnish person. I wonder why he waited until the very end? Like I hear the kind of like, I'm not wanting to disrupt the flow, etcetera. But he was still part of the team. So that interrogation of like, what is he telling himself about his mattering and his belonging in the group? And how important that would be for y'all if he was able to ask himself those questions would he have spoken up earlier?

Bill Duane: 41:35

And also, some of these that makes me think that we have these overlaps of domains. So in this case, the stereotypical Finnish culture is very quiet, very individual, not very, not very social. On Reddit, I saw a picture of people standing at a bus stop in one of the Nordic countries, that wasn't Finland. And they were standing about 10 feet apart, because that's how you queue up, is you stand 10 feet apart. And some guy from Finland was like, Look how close they are, you know? Yeah. But even even by Nordic standards. So I think we can have these overlapping ideas. And I think, you know, interrogate can have a harsh sound to it. Maybe, maybe a better term would be like, can you poke the soap bubble? Right to see if it pops. So in this case, the soap bubble was Finnish people are quiet. Americans, California, Americans in particular, are loud and obnoxious. So that's, this is just what's going on. So we can sort of overlay those.

Roxy Manning: 42:45

I'm really feeling pensive about this conversation, because I do a lot of work with organizations on microaggressions. And I think this is the place where we often don't check our assumptions, that many people, there's an organizational culture, and then when someone comes in who's not part of that culture, sometimes we expect them to be different. And we expect that there's going to be challenged, and we assume that anything that's happening is because of their difference, rather than what are we doing that's contributing to that challenge that's happening. And so this is one of those, you know, popping the soap of I might use his face from now on, but popping that soap bubble bubble might help people to start to question their own actions, like, what am I doing that's contributing to this? And what's happening in our system and our culture that's contributing to this discomfort, rather than it's because of their difference.

Bill Duane: 43:41

Right. And of course, in order for that to happen, you got to see this a soap bubble. You have to be like, you know, the fishes like, I'm what now wet, what is wet? How would I know if I'm not wet? And so this brings us to an issue I think that's really important in terms of whether it be for dei or innovation stuff is how do we create environments where the physics of the situation, tilt towards wholesomeness? And I think an anti pattern for this is putting all of the locusts on the individual? So you mentioned just now the stuff you were feeling pensive about is, you know, this idea of like stereotype threat of oh, well, it's because this person is different than that. And then almost like the idea that that's causing problems. And I think that can lead to as well as the in particular the American individualist ethos, which again, is fish, we don't know, we're wet, that you solve these problems. So in other words, that there's there's an extractive nature, which is contractive. And then if only individuals were more resilient than the problem would be solved. But I just even think from an efficiency standpoint, not to mind the obvious moral aspects of it that like, well, what if we didn't require so much resilience? What if we, what if the gravity on this planet wasn't so heavy, but again, we're not really aware of it since it's omnipresent. And this means really being very skillful about it's not just the systemic stuff, or it's not the individual stuff, we get back to this idea of very interesting and delicate dance between the two.

Roxy Manning: 45:36

Yeah, even this, I, like I mentioned, I do a lot of work on microaggressions. And one of the activities, one of the things I have folks do is they're working in small groups, and sharing microaggressions that they've experienced. And I'm always shocked how many people believe that this is happening to me, right? Or the people who are not experiencing those microaggressions are like, Oh, what's happening to that one person. And what I hear over and over and over again, is, once I start hearing everyone's stories, I realize that this is not about the person. There's something in our system, something the way we're set up, that's causing this to happen reliably to members of this group. But they can't even know that until we start to hear and speak to each other. And so when you ask, like, what are one of the things that we can do that can help to, I don't know, maybe lighten the gravity? It would be make it normalized talking about these conversations, about these topics. Right? Ask the questions. Don't assume that everyone is just hunky dory and doing fine. But actually ask people what is your experience with this? And then listen to their answers. We don't do that enough.

Bill Duane: 46:51

Hmm. And I think to your point is, you know, if we don't do it, then the obvious question is, why not? And in some of the things that we've talked about so far is that one is we don't even know that there's something to talk about, we don't see the soap bubble. Two, is, it's really can be really scary to reach out towards the soap bubble, particularly when other people are watching. And then from, you know, the actor standpoint, to use your your methodology, that once the soap bubble pops, it can be so painful that we just want to forget the whole fucking thing. Yep. And

Roxy Manning: 47:27

Yes, yes. And that's why I think, like in this model that I present in my book, the first part of any kind of dialogue about this is our inner work. We can't actually have a dialogue with somebody else, without being clear on what's the approach that I want to take? What's the consciousness, maybe Nonviolent Communication? Or what I also call Beloved Community? What's that approach to being with people that I want to take? And then where are the places where I'm holding judgment, where I'm holding fear that's getting in the way of my willingness to step into these conversations? And what can I do to support me so that I can do it a little bit less fearfully. A little bit.

Bill Duane: 48:07

Right. Yeah. So what are your favorite ways for developing that self awareness? That understanding of one's own internal state, so you end up with a dowsing stick or a measuring device to, to handle both ones, And, you know, one's own end of it? And then presumably, afterwards, other people's reactions?

Roxy Manning: 48:32

Yes, I'll talk about a couple. So you, you meditate. So I think that's definitely a great one, just being able to observe my thoughts. And I think nowadays, that is so much harder to do. I have a friend, Oren Jay Sofer, who he's got a book coming out also, that's on meditation, and like kind of meditative practices, 26 practices that can help us. And one of the ones he talks about is attention. And we no longer have attention. We're always distracting ourselves from our thoughts. We're going to our devices, where there's so many things that pull our attention away. And if I'm not paying attention, even to the thoughts that are hard, I'm never going to become aware of them. So just slowing down, emptying my mind, paying attention to what's floating through my mind. Not like grasping onto it, but just noticing what's there and giving it space to be known is really important. So a meditative practice can be really helpful. Another one that's connected to Nonviolent Communication is, and I tell people, like maybe every hour, it could be at the top of the hour, bottom of the hour, just regular frequency. Pause whatever you're doing and say, What am I feeling in this very moment? And what do I need? And there's a whole list of Nonviolent Communication needs. I'd have to talk a little bit more about what that is, but even just understanding what's like the core thing that's motivating me in this moment can help us start to connect with our inner world in a way that we're often not aware of. We're often taking actions without understanding what's motivating those actions. So checking in on that can be really helpful.

Bill Duane: 50:16

And it's, you know, neurobiologically training those two things actually gives you again, this idea that it can be very tender, the science actually gives me a little bit more confidence that when you develop these abilities to know your cognitive and your internal states, you not only get the self awareness, but also self regulation. I think there's there's a fear, particularly some some gender training, that if we, if you take the lid off the emotions, it'll be like one of those joke, peanut hands were all the snakes come flying out. So for me, just to know that intrinsically, that self awareness generates self regulation using those methods. And also other like, it's the same, like if you know, your own, and I would, I would add to that, the somatic internal interoceptive awareness. If you begin to learn, like when you're angry, how do you know you're angry? You know, part of it might be, you know, the cognitive part you're mentioning, where you're just like, wow, I'm really swearing in that person a lot in my internal voice, but also these feelings, these these intuitions. And I think interestingly, doing this training in service of getting better at whatever that means also, then allows us to hold some of these sensations of when, you know, the inquiry turns into something that's challenging to hold, then the ability to hold that. And say, Oh, this is what this feels like, whether that be shame, or regret, and being able to then to then hold it. So I think I think this somatic part, that feeling in is, is really, really important. And, you know, going back to this idea of individual versus community. On the negative side, people can really live in our heads, which is a bummer. But on the positive side, our ability to co regulate each other. So if there's a neutral person involved in who you're talking about in the context of microaggressions, generally, there's somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight, or it doesn't have strong emotions, the ability of that person to then co regulate the other two people. One is I think this is good for the heart, good for the soul. And it's also good for highly productive groups. It isn't an when I say productive, I don't even mean it necessarily in the in the work sense, but to have these have these roles.

Roxy Manning: 52:42

Well, you've just said so much that I'm really like, yes, yes, yes, really enjoy. First, this piece about sensations, it's huge. Part of what's coming to mind for me is like I can't control anything about my reactions, if I don't allow myself to notice them and feel them. So we can't control something that I don't see. And I need to be able to know like for me, I noticed that when I start getting tense in my shoulders, I pause, I just take that as a sign that okay, my anger is going up, I need to pause, breathe, and then check in. Not automatically say, that person's making me angry, but what's important to me right now, right. So this helps me to have enough awareness so I can access choice about how I want to move forward in that situation. The other piece that felt really important, was the importance of community. We need to be able to serve each other. I like me, this feels so important to me, I, there's much I want to say about it. I want to be able to if I'm a member of a team, I want to be able to offer the moments when I am feeling grounded, when I am not upset by what's going on, in service to everyone else on the team. So being able to listen to like, if you come to me and say Roxy, I'm so mad at this person, they did this and you're full of judgment, one of the gifts I can give you is to listen to what's important to you, to empathize with you without buying into your story. And too often on teams, I see us listening to the person and almost like egging them on. Yeah, they were a bad person, they were wrong to do that, rather than getting to the heart of what's wrong. Oh, this is what was important to you. This is what you valued. This was what you were needing, which helps the person connect to what's important to them, and then helps them return to choice. So it's not just around showing up and like saying I'm going to be there and present, but showing up in a very intentional way that I'm showing up to empathize and to connect to the heart of what's true for this person.

Bill Duane: 54:56

Amazing so, you know, I'm saying thinking that we're, we're heading in a direction that brings out something that's very profound but also, I think, very counterintuitive. That, you know, in order to be really good at innovating in any domain, that there's an intersection of vulnerability and conflict. You know, everything that you've been saying around this is some beautiful dance, a tender, challenging dance around vulnerability. Like, I don't think any of the methods that either of us have described are possible without some degree of vulnerability. But we also talked in a real way, that vulnerability is really hard in some of these and that conflict, we mentioned is, in some ways, an inevitable arising of different points of view, and what you said about different experiences. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on you know, this, this, this this very tender and delicate intersection of vulnerability and conflict.

Roxy Manning: 56:11

Yeah. Well, when I think about vulnerability, let's start there. Especially when we're talking about DEI and diversity and having diverse workgroups, I want to acknowledge that there's a degree of vulnerability required, it's almost necessary that the person who's coming into that group, who is quote, different, who's not part of whatever that normative culture is, that's different than the amount of vulnerable vulnerability required of the folks who are established in that group. And so I always want to be mindful of who we're asking to continue to be vulnerable. In both cases, vulnerability is necessary. But what I often see happen is that the person who is quote, the outsider is the person who's asked to, you know, be able and speak up and share what you're needing, be vulnerable, and let us know when it's not working for you. And so they're doing all the work, they're doing the vulnerability labor for the group, and then the rest of the group gets, you know, they still have to respond to whatever gets stirred up for them when this person speaks, but it's a much easier position to be in. So I want groups to be really mindful, like, am I putting all of the labor on the person who is the outsider in this moment, to be the one to be vulnerable, to be brave to show up and do the work that's necessary for our group to gel and thrive? And that's, like you said, super connected to conflict. Because whenever there's a conflict, I have to show up in terms of being vulnerable. And the person or the receiver has to show up if they want to name vulnerably, what's happening, the actor has to show up with their vulnerability about how they're receiving this, what's coming up for them, and then choose to focus on the conflict. Now, a lot of people have talked about things like if we're talking about the AI stuff, right? One aspect of the DEI is racism, people talk about white fragility all the time. And for me, that's a place where that vulnerability collapses us into shame. Rather than I can be vulnerable, I can notice stuff, and I can still show up and work on the issue. So I want us to be able to acknowledge that vulnerability is necessary, and to still choose who we're asking to be vulnerable. And to recognize that vulnerability doesn't have to paralyze us. It doesn't have to prevent us from getting to the tough conversations. So one of the invitations I have for folks who are part of that normative group, is to think about, what can I do? What can I say? What can I ask that will take on some of that vulnerability labor. It might feel really edgy for me to say, I noticed you've been really quiet. I'm wondering if there's some way that I'm showing up that's making it hard for you to, to speak or to get a word in edgewise. Right? That's a vulnerable thing to ask. I'm opening myself up to saying actually, yeah, you haven't shut up since I walked into the room or whatever it is, I might want to say. But take that risk. Be vulnerable in this way. Make it easy for us to find those places of conflict and name them.

Bill Duane: 59:20

I love that and it echoes back a little bit and to what we were saying before is if there's a person who has excess capacity in some way to then lend that to the other people in the group. So one is the idea that if you know if you have the knowledge that to bring up an issue is a much heavier lift than generally it is to hear an issue is what I was what I was hearing from that. And then to realize that, oh, I have something to give again, that idea of offloading. So maybe, maybe a refinement of, of this idea of vulnerability of conflict would be, is the vulnerability evenly distributed?

Roxy Manning: 1:00:05

Yes.

Bill Duane: 1:00:07

Right. So if we want to say what are the habits of a team that's going to be amazing at innovation? That's that's a real mind opener for me is to become aware of what's the degree of vulnerability? And I think it's the only way to find out is to ask I think or. And then this gets back to what's a method of asking, Well funny it's this Nonviolent Communication thing. But I love that idea that if we're if we're really thoughtful about this, about the vulnerability. So one is, what is everyone's capacity? You know, the way I teach this to new managers is you want to be as direct as possible, without the drawbridge going up. As soon as the drawbridge goes up, then the communication has stopped and you need to put the drawbridge down or back off for a while. And who's being asked to keep the drawbridge up or up or down what percentage of the time? Wow, that's a real, that's a real learning for me.

Roxy Manning: 1:01:03

Great, great.

Bill Duane: 1:01:07

So one of the reasons why both of us talked about that this work is so important to us is a recognition that we're in a deeply historic time. And that there's really big consequences. And, you know, I think things are up in the air in a way that they haven't been probably in about two generations. And looping back to the earlier part of the conversation, this is the opportunity for freedom and degrees of freedom that were unavailable before. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the movie is going to have a happy ending, you know, things could come down either way. And both of us have a very sincere desire to arm young leaders, maybe someone in their in their 20s, who stepping into this world that was created for them without as much care. Thinking back on everything that we've that we've done so far, and knowing that it's falling on their shoulders truly, to lift this burden, what would you wish for a young leader in their 20s who's stepping into this space?

Roxy Manning: 1:02:16

This, this question feels especially meaningful for me because I have a 24 year old child. And I think about the world that he's going to inherit, and what he needs to do to lead us through, he and all his generation through these coming years. And what I want for these young leaders is, first the capacity to do that self inquiry, right? To notice both what's going, on what's my truth, what am I needing? And to feel comfortable to reach out and ask for help. I think you mentioned earlier, this kind of individualistic ethos, that's part of US and Western culture. And we can't fix this alone, we need to be able to say like, sometimes I might be triggered, I might be upset, I might feel hopeless. And I need to be able to reach out to other people, for support, for reflection, for reinvigoration of hope, if necessary. So that's one of the big things that they want us to know that it's okay to do the inner work to self connect, to connect to our emotions, and let that help us understand when we're needing to access more support. The other piece is, in some ways, what we've been talking about this whole conversation. That I want every young leader to recognize that they, regardless of where they are in the world is growing up with a very specific context. And that the only way we get out of this mess, is when we start to be curious about what are all of the other puzzle pieces that I need to become aware of, and put on the table if we're going to find a solution for what's necessary. We're never going to fix this by only relying on the things that we know that we've learned from whatever context we've grown up in. We've got to stretch out and reach for that kind of innovative, creative and diverse perspectives we simply can't have access to in the worlds, that in the context that we're moving in.

Bill Duane: 1:04:22

I think it's absolutely true and a great way of tying together everything that we've spoken about wanted to finish with a note of intense gratitude for you. You know, I've so much to learn there and I think this idea that you know DEI work is not in a silo. Being good at DEI is being good at being a human. It's being good at rising to the challenges of the day. And it's not separate out its own thing. And I think the the you know for people that are in established positions, you know, just to realize that everything we just talked about is under attack, a very well organized, dismantling DEI, all of this. And so if if you know, for the folks that are listening, if you were struck by this vision of what we need to give 20 year old leaders, it's exactly this for the most practical of reasons and for the most ethical and moral of reasons. It's it's not it's not skippable. So if you're saying yes, if you're listening to this and saying, Yes, I believe this, then I think there's some work to be done in protecting these nascent ways of communicating with each other. And again, there's systems and organizational things that need to be that need to be stood up for. And that's part of the work of then having the the fruit of what we've been describing, be available for these young leaders.

Roxy Manning: 1:06:01

Thank you, Bill.

Bill Duane: 1:06:07

All right. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Roxy Manning: 1:06:11

I've enjoyed it. I want to say how awed I am at the breadth of knowledge that you bring to this work, and your ability to see all of the different threads like when I talked about innovation being so many things, you bring together a lot of different fields of innovation that we need in order to transcend this moment. Thank you.

Bill Duane: 1:06:32

Beautiful. Thank you.